“Students are rarely taught about the social enterprise landscape.” with Kirsty Thomson

Kirsty Thomson is a charity and social enterprise consultant. She has founded several organisations including The Circle and was recently CEO of The Big House. Kirsty is also a Professor of Practice at the University of Dundee and Chair of the university’s Business School advisory committee.

Kirsty and Sarah explore

• Her professional journey from academic to founder and back again
• The support that charity founders need to be financially sustainable
• Why university students rarely learn about third-sector business models
• How professional role models can help bridge the gap between theory and practice

Connect with Kirsty on LinkedIn

Follow the Academic Adventures podcast on LinkedIn 

This podcast was a collaboration between the University of the West of Scotland, Converge and Sarah McLusky, working in partnership with Ross Tuffee and The Connect-Ed Network. The podcast team includes Orla Kelly, Adam Kosterka, Jen Black and Sarah McLusky. This season of Academic Adventures is supported by the Scottish Funding Council.

Transcript

Academic Adventures 2.6 Kirsty Thomson

[00:00:00] Kirsty Thomson: 20 something years ago these charities could survive on grants. Now it's far more competitive and you need to have a really strong business model behind what you do. 

[00:00:11] Kirsty Thomson: It's still not something that's taught a great deal within the university setting is this whole charity, social enterprise landscape.

[00:00:21] Kirsty Thomson: I've been approached by students to say, we haven't even thought of this as an option, and I've got this particular idea. 

[00:00:29] Sarah McLusky: Welcome to the Academic Adventures Podcast. This podcast is all about the journey from teaching, research, and innovation to real world solutions. For season two, we are joined by experienced founders and other experts who work alongside university staff and students to help create and support a culture of enterprise on campus.

[00:00:48] Sarah McLusky: Hello and welcome to the Academic Adventures Podcast. I'm your host, Sarah McLusky. Today I'm delighted to welcome Kirsty Thomson as our sixth guest of this season. Kirsty is a charity and social enterprise consultant who has founded several organisations including The Circle, The Circle Learning Foundation, and in the past year, she has been heading up The Big House charity.

[00:01:09] Sarah McLusky: Kirsty is also a professor of practice at the University of Dundee and chair of their Business School's advisory committee. It's perhaps no surprise that Kirsty has embraced academic collaboration as she began her career with a PhD and post-doc positions in psychology. She now gives lectures and advises both students and staff on the skills needed to set up and run financially sustainable nonprofit organisations.

[00:01:33] Sarah McLusky: Kirsty and I talk about the kinds of support that charity founders need, the perhaps surprising similarities between universities and third sector organisations, and how professional role models can help bridge the gap between taught theory and the skills that employers and founders really need.

[00:01:52] Sarah McLusky: Welcome along to the podcast, Kirsty, it is so lovely to have you here. I wonder if we could begin by just hearing a little bit about yourself, what it is that you do and this world that you're involved in.

[00:02:04] Kirsty Thomson: Thanks very much, Sarah, for having me along. And I'm Kirsty Thompson. I am a serial social entrepreneur. I've founded multiple social enterprises, and right now I am running a charity in Scotland and soon to become a charity consultant again.

[00:02:22] Sarah McLusky: Fantastic. I'm sure we're gonna hear a bit more about those as we go through.

[00:02:26] Sarah McLusky: And also with this podcast being about academic entrepreneurship, you are involved as well with that side of things. So tell us a little bit about the work that you do there.

[00:02:35] Kirsty Thomson: Sure. I am the chair of the Business School's Advisory Board at Dundee University, so I have been doing that now for the past couple of years, but I've been heavily involved in the university for probably about 10, 13 years with student placements and things.

[00:02:51] Kirsty Thomson: And working really collaboratively with them in the business school and other departments in the University of Dundee and Abertay as well.

[00:03:00] Sarah McLusky: Yeah, so I think it's gonna make for a really interesting conversation today 'cause most of the other people that I've interviewed for this podcast have been doing, they've been involved in, science, technology, finance, but this charity side of things is something that I think is gonna be unique in, in all of the guests that we have on this podcast season. So tell us a bit about those cha. First of all, just yourself, those charities, those social enterprises, the things that you've been involved in setting up in the past, and how that's led you to, to where you are now.

[00:03:34] Kirsty Thomson: My, my journey's probably a little bit unusual because it actually started in academia where I was a research associate actually for a number of years. I worked at Dundee Uni and Newcastle University. And from that I moved back up to Scotland and decided that I wanted to get a job, do something different, and at that time it was the height of the recession. It was really tricky to get into something and you needed a PhD to do it, or you needed to have additional papers and things. So I was overqualified for a lot of jobs and underqualified for others. So it got to the position where I looked at my skillset. I worked with a business advisor in Dundee and supported me to create the first social enterprise, which was ACK Third Sector Consultants. And we really were there primarily to do fundraising, grant writing, event management, anything that charities particularly those small to medium size wanted to outsource and to help us to, we would be then going in there to help them to develop multiple income streams to what they did.

[00:04:48] Kirsty Thomson: So it all started there. I met some amazing clients and it became pretty obvious that there were challenges across charities and social enterprise. And they needed often a space to collaborate. They needed a meeting space where they knew what their overheads were month to month in the charity and social enterprise sector was often things such as core funding that comes out. And that core funding covers things like their operating costs, their running costs of having an office, meeting space, that type of thing. And when that money's gone, the charity then has to look to fundraise to get the money elsewhere to cover the costs. And what became really clear is that there was lots of entities out there that were renting spaces that were either too large for them, too small for them, they needed a collaborative community space.

[00:05:40] Kirsty Thomson: So after about three or four years of running the consultancy I launched the Circle, which is a social enterprise hub, and where I. Basically developed a community space where people had an office, access to meeting space, what was really important about that model is that people, month to month, knew what their overheads were.

[00:06:02] Kirsty Thomson: There was no surprises, and it allowed them to do the job that they were there to do and make the impact that they needed to make. That then expanded from Dundee into the West Coast of Scotland and to Easterhouse. And couple of years ago the Circle took over Dudhope Castle, which is one of the oldest historic buildings in the city, 13th century castle, and it's now operating in a 22,000 square foot building in the west coast of Scotland as well. And. As a result of, again, some of that journey. So it's been a really iterative process my, my journey, I think where I've learned a lot from everything and put into practice, and again, it comes back to academia, making sure that there's an evidence base. So from the journey and the Circle, it became really clear that it's not always obvious to individuals how to start a charity or social enterprise. We created a program called the Circle Academy, 12 week Accelerator Program for those that wanted to get started in charity and social enterprise, taking you through everything from getting the right legal structure right through to income generation marketing, and making the organization sustainable. That was Scottish government funded and after a couple of years of putting a number of individuals through that, we got it SCQF accredited level seven, and we spun that out into a separate foundation, which is called the Circle Learning Foundation. So I'm the founder of that also.

[00:07:31] Kirsty Thomson: So that's been the journey and last year I was approached to run a Scottish charity that was founded by Amazon and Gordon Brown. To redistribute surplus goods through a circular economy model to those living in poverty. And that contract's coming to an end in a few weeks, and I'll be then going back to my roots of consultancy. So it's gone full Circle.

[00:07:57] Sarah McLusky: Oh, certainly. I'm sure as you, you go back into consultancy you're bringing that huge amount of knowledge that you've got there, and it's really interesting the way that you say it grew over time. I can totally picture what you say when there's all these little charities trying to do things and trying to figure it out.

[00:08:15] Sarah McLusky: Often it's just one or two people who are just really passionate about a cause, isn't it? And they get going with something. So having a space, not only a space they can operate from, but a space where they can connect with other people and learn more about running that business. I can see why that would be incredibly valuable for people.

[00:08:33] Kirsty Thomson: Absolutely. Yeah. And I think that what it does is it through those individuals, the community is formed and then the impact is just so much greater within that particular community as well. And I think what's really amazing about people working in the charity and social enterprise sector is they're massive problem solvers. They see an issue. They see a solution and they actually don't always have the tools to set up the structure to do that. So that's where I think people like myself coming to help to say, actually, I can unpick this a little bit. I can see the business model within what you're doing, and I can help you at the next stage.

[00:09:13] Sarah McLusky: Yeah. And it's really interesting that you started in academia and then you've now almost gone that full Circle. What was your subject area when you were in academia? Was it related to what you do now?

[00:09:26] Kirsty Thomson: My subject area was psychology. And I spent quite a bit of time in researching behavior actually. So I did a lot of coding interactions and behaviors as well. So I think psychology has been my sort of foundation, and I think that plays out in everything that you do. So whether that's in business, whether it's in academia, I think there are strands of that you need to be very aware of and how you interact with people.

[00:09:53] Kirsty Thomson: And obviously the psychology of marketing a business and things is really key as well, and how you engage with your customers. So yeah. Something that I think is threaded through what I do today.

[00:10:03] Sarah McLusky: Yeah. So much of business is understanding people, isn't it? Yes. It's understanding what people need and how they behave and how they react to certain situations. So I can see why that'd be really useful. And I also imagine having that knowledge of how academia operates was also useful when you came to do the work that you do now with the University of Dundee. So tell us a little bit about, and you said with Abertay as well. Tell us a little bit about the sorts of things that you get involved with.

[00:10:28] Kirsty Thomson: Yeah, so I certainly from the beginning when I set up a ACK Third Sector Consultants, we would run various projects with students where we would have activities and they would spend a bit of time with us, whether it was event managing, fundraising, planning, some sort of marketing activities. So it would be students from lots of different departments, typically business school. But because of my background in psychology, we did attract different students from other disciplines as well. And I think I was really keen to say to people, just because you have a degree in this particular area doesn't mean that's what you'll do at the end of it. And I think it's really important to show that to students to say, this is the journey. It's not always the trajectory that you think you're going to go on, but actually here's what you can do. And there's lots of skills you learn from a degree in psychology and how you apply that elsewhere. As well. So it was really important.

[00:11:24] Kirsty Thomson: So we did lots of projects. We got involved in a training program for young people to educate them on what it was to be part of a charity or social enterprise. So that was again, another training program that was funded. And I suppose that was really the foundations for the Circle charity that was set up, the Circle Learning Foundation. So everything for me has just been a learning process and a lot of it you don't get right when you start out at all will not get it right and as long as you can learn from it and chalk it up to experience and be willing to change as well, be willing to make the change.

[00:12:07] Sarah McLusky: So right back from the beginning you were working with the universities and you're now working as a Professor of Practice, is that right ? And so what does being a Professor of Practice entail?

[00:12:17] Kirsty Thomson: So that is a voluntary role, so I have committed to doing two lectures a year as a minimum, but also in addition to that, I will be doing, continuing to work with the students on campus if there's any particular challenges, if there's any opportunities for student projects, anything like that. I think I'm willing to get involved and share my experience, and I think from my perspective, it's still not something that's taught a great deal within the university setting is this whole charity, social enterprise landscape.

[00:12:54] Kirsty Thomson: And I think if we can look at how business schools, actually, a lot of the things that you're taught in business schools are directly applicable to charities and social enterprises, particularly these days. When I started out in the charity and social enterprise sector, 20 something years ago these charities could survive on grants and they were able to do what they could to survive that way. Now, the way that the world works, it's far more competitive and you need to have a really strong business model behind what you do. So there can be grant income, but it's really important that there are other income streams to what you do as well.

[00:13:33] Kirsty Thomson: So part of the work that I've been developing and I'm developing is just looking at how charities become sustainable, both from a people perspective how they sustain their people, but also how they sustain their impact to make a difference as well.

[00:13:50] Sarah McLusky: And some of the thing, I mean, you've said there that having multiple streams of income is one of the things that helps them to be more resilient. What other things have you found are really important in terms of running charities or social enterprises?

[00:14:03] Kirsty Thomson: I think for me it was making sure that we created the right environment for staff, for training, for developing our people as well. So a number of individuals that have worked with me over the years have come in as a volunteer. And they've worked through the organization to develop into more senior roles as well. I think it's a huge part of it is getting the right culture within the organization and making sure that you have the right people with the right values around you. Because actually when you have that is just the secret to making a huge impact as well. And so that's been a huge part of my learning curve. But I think the income streams it's often, I think society will often look at charity and social enterprise and assume that it just exists because there's grants and there's donations and there's philanthropy and X, Y, and Z.

[00:14:59] Kirsty Thomson: But actually what I've really started to hone in on in my experiences that you need to have a really clear idea of what that looks like. Cash flows are required in our organisations as well. They just look slightly different to what a commercial business would look like, and how they are pulled together is just, just the same. But again, it's applying some of that into the charity and social enterprise sector. I find it fascinating when I get to meet people who are involved in these organisations because they come in, as you say, with the passion, with the need to do, to make a difference. They don't often have the tools behind them to actually get that organization in the best place financially as well. That's a huge part, and I think training for me is something that's really key. Whether that's educating the individuals, running the organization, looking at trustees, non-exec directors, the governance side of it as well is vital for a charity to be successful.

[00:16:02] Sarah McLusky: So it sounds like that combination of the right people and the right finances and income streams and things like that? Yes, absolutely. Or what's gonna make it successful. And when it comes to the sort of staff and students that you work with in the university, I'm just interested in their take on social enterprise. Is it something that, that people want to do? Do they have real misconceptions about what it might be like to go down that route? Or have you found it something that, that people are thinking about quite seriously.

[00:16:30] Kirsty Thomson: I think I've noticed certainly in the past, I would say five or six years that I have actually been approached after I've done any talks at the universities or been involved in anything I've been approached by students afterwards to say, we haven't even thought of this as an option, and I've got this particular idea. I think now people, I think generally, that are going through universities are thinking about business that makes a difference as well. So we, in, in the Circle we coined the trademark More Than Profit. It's about making a difference to people's lives. 

[00:17:06] Kirsty Thomson: So for me, you need the sustainable income streams to make the difference. You can't just go out there and expect that just because you're a charity that, that you will survive. It's just about making sure you've got the business model, the finances there, and once you've got that, then you can make the impact that you really want to make.

[00:17:26] Kirsty Thomson: But often people jump to that, make an impact first, and then really struggle to come back from that because they haven't got their income streams in place.

[00:17:35] Sarah McLusky: Certainly people in the university space talk lots about making an impact. That's very much baked into how research is assessed and everything now. So I imagine there are a lot of people coming through the university system, whether it's staff thinking about doing spin outs, whether it's students studying who are thinking, I want to do something that, that makes difference in the world, but they might be thinking, or I'm going to invent some widget or I'm going to, make millions and then give it to charity. I don't know. But yeah, it's interesting that how few perhaps are thinking about this social enterprise side of things.

[00:18:12] Kirsty Thomson: Yes, absolutely. And I think that it's having a model behind you that can make a difference as well. Why would you not want to have a business that could do that? To me it's just a no brainer. Yeah. It's you want to do good, but also be financially sustainable as well. Yeah, it makes so much sense. And actually I think if more businesses took that approach, we would see significant changes in communities and would see a lot more ownership of some of the problems that, that we're facing as well. So I think bringing business, charity, public sector together in this is really key.

[00:18:54] Sarah McLusky: Yeah, and I imagine as well when you're talking about this More Than Profit model, I imagine that there are lessons there that could be applied to any business.

[00:19:03] Kirsty Thomson: Absolutely. Yeah. It's. I think that side of things, I would say, again, if you're running a commercial business, you're going to have to consider your board, your staff, your governance, all of these things, which is very similar to charity. You income streams will be different, but actually everything else I would say is pretty much the same, and I think that's tricky for a lot of people to get their heads around because that's not the way that charities and social enterprises have historically been presented.

[00:19:34] Kirsty Thomson: But I think it's definitely the way that we are moving and if. I meet with a consultancy client and if I've worked with someone over the years and their first thought is I'll get funding for that, which is actually quite similar to the academic sector, I'll get funding for that. That's great. But what happens when the funding runs out? So how do you sustain that idea? How do you sustain that particular product service? You name it. You need to think about the model that goes behind it. And it comes back to that getting a really clear business model to what you do and that for some charities and social enterprises a scary word 'cause you're using business in that context, but ultimately it's about how you make your money.

[00:20:18] Sarah McLusky: Yeah, it's interesting those comparisons, you said there between academia and charity, third sector organisations is, I imagine a lot of the mindset challenges are quite similar across both of those organisations. Have you noticed that?

[00:20:34] Kirsty Thomson: Yeah, I have actually noticed that, and I think that it's really interesting. I've observed that actually across the public sector as well where you think about how you come up with the costs for things and I think it's just this whole concept in charity that something's free.

[00:20:51] Kirsty Thomson: And probably 'cause again, in education, you'll be looking at the similar thing. You go there and there's a fee perhaps that you're paying for it, but I think it's about people valuing what they get as well and actually looking behind that to say actually if that person's time is X, Y, and Z what price would you put on that and how can you cost that out as well? So yeah, I think there's definitely similarities in terms of governance as well within the university sector and the charitable sector. It's really key that you've got the right people in those roles that are making the decisions and scrutinizing decisions of the executive teams and things as well.

[00:21:30] Sarah McLusky: I think it's even just hearing you talk, I can think of, it's, as you say that that mentality of looking for grant funding for everything, also that mentality, wanting to make a difference, but that expectation of things being free. Definitely it's making lots of connections in my mind between Oh, where have I also heard people using that kind of language.

[00:21:51] Sarah McLusky: So I, yeah. So it makes sense then that you're now doing this work as well with the business school. So what made motivates you personally to get involved in this sort of stuff?

[00:22:02] Kirsty Thomson: I suppose I, I think seeing other people and seeing the difference that they could make. So watching whether it's someone that's come in to volunteer with me, watching their journey, watching them develop what they go on to do next, or whether that's an individual that wants to set up a charity or social enterprise for the first time in the impact that they make.

[00:22:25] Kirsty Thomson: So I think that's massive to the why I do what I do, but also my own history, is my younger sister, Elaine, has microcephaly. So from a very young age, my family were supported by a huge number of charities, including Barnardo's, PAMIS in Scotland. And I think the value that those organisations gave my family through particular points of transition for Elaine was really important.

[00:22:57] Kirsty Thomson: So I don't suppose I'm surprised I'm in this sector doing what I do, but I, it's why I'm so keen that we make these organisations sustainable because if they disappear, the impact that has on communities is catastrophic. Yeah. And actually individuals and families who have a source of expertise from a particular charity like PAMIS, who focus on people with profound disabilities. Then what happens to those individuals and their families when they're gone? So it's so important that business model is right in these organisations. I would say more than any business, actually because there's jobs at stake, there's families impacted there's so many things and that ripple effect is huge.

[00:23:43] Kirsty Thomson: So that's, I suppose that's what motivates me is making sure that we can, I can do the best for those organisations to make sure they're in the best position to make the impact that they need to.

[00:23:53] Sarah McLusky: Yeah, that makes a lot of, so a lot of sense. I'm finding that combination of both your academic background and then this kind of personal interest and that interest in people makes a lot of sense why you've ended up where you have now.

[00:24:07] Sarah McLusky: So for universities that are maybe thinking about how they could get people like you involved, whether it's as Professors of Practice or other kinds of activities that you might be involved in, how do you think universities can make really good use of experts like yourself?

[00:24:24] Kirsty Thomson: I think what was appealing to me about this particular opportunity as a Professor in Practice is that I get to work with students, I get to work with staff and to share that industry experience. So 23 years of building up a career that it doesn't always go well. There have been some pretty significant challenges along the way and navigating the energy crisis when you run a hub for charities and social enterprises. When you've got COVID at play, when you have to shut buildings down, all these kind of things and then in addition to that, you've got to do your day job. So I think it's just the real practical examples of how to put into practice some of the things that you learn at university and how that comes out. And I think often just sharing those journeys is really invaluable to students to say, you know what? This is what I thought I was going to do, and here's what I'm doing now. And I think that's really key. So I think universities can use those industry experts a lot more in that way. But also I think in shaping the curriculum, looking at how we attract students into the workplace, the kind of skills that employers are looking for, whether that's from a charity, social enterprise perspective, whether it's from a business perspective, public sector, there will be things that we're looking for to attract the right candidates and those students knowing actually it's important that you have these skills to enter into a workplace now.

[00:26:00] Kirsty Thomson: But also I think the dialogue between industry and academia to look at training programs to see what if there are particular areas where small local businesses need extra support from the academic institutions on the doorstep. So what other programs can be run? Are there executive education opportunities there?

[00:26:23] Kirsty Thomson: So I think we've got a lot to. A lot to do. A long way to go I think. But actually things like the advisory board at the School of Business and the university is a great starting point 'cause you start to have those conversations where you bring academia together with the industry experts and start to open some of these doors and question some of the decisions as well.

[00:26:46] Kirsty Thomson: But in, in terms of the advisory board in Dundee, you've got individuals on there who have got press and media backgrounds. You've got accountants, you've got people from the social enterprise sector, you've got people from sports and recreation sector. You've got a whole range of individuals with a whole range of skill sets that are willing and able to come in and do some practical teaching as well. And to do things that not necessarily using the the theory behind it, but actually coming and talking from personal experience, which I think is really valuable.

[00:27:22] Sarah McLusky: Yeah, I think having those role models, that's the idea behind this whole podcast series is to give some role models, some examples of what people might be doing, how they might be helping. And and yeah, as you say, that sounds like an amazing range of people who could be involved in contributing to the university teaching and to, as you say, some of those decisions. Increasingly conversations about universities and their role as anchor institutions and what they are doing for their local community. And as you say, there's lots of examples there of where they might be doing, just maybe smaller little things which make a big difference to one particular business or one particular charity.

[00:28:03] Kirsty Thomson: Absolutely. Yeah, and I think that probably, again it's not as usual to see people with social enterprise and charity backgrounds in these discussions. And I think that's really important to me is that we keep pushing that forward as a a career choice for individuals. There's the ability to make a real difference in, in roles like mine, and I think that it's just often not on the curriculum. It's not even discussed. But I've been very fortunate through the relationships with both Dundee University and Abertay University, that I've been able to have those conversations and I know that students have gone on from certain placements, they've asked me for references. They've gone on to do some amazing work in the third sector, actually. So I think it's, it does make a difference. Definitely.

[00:28:57] Sarah McLusky: Oh, it sounds like you are making an absolute huge difference. So thank you so much for your time. If people want to find out more about you or about the organisations that you work with, whereabouts would you suggest that they go?

[00:29:10] Kirsty Thomson: I would say contact me on LinkedIn. My profile's there at, it's under Professor Kirsty Thompson FRSA, and you can find me there and please do get in touch.

[00:29:20] Sarah McLusky: Fantastic. We'll get a link for that and put it in the show notes. So thank you so much for taking the time today to come and tell us about your story and the amazing work you do. Thank you.

[00:29:30] Kirsty Thomson: Thank you for inviting me. Thanks very much. 

[00:29:34] Sarah McLusky: If you've been inspired by this podcast, head over to our LinkedIn page and tell us about your biggest takeaways. You'll find a link in the show notes or just search for the Academic Adventures Podcast. This podcast is a collaboration between the University of the West of Scotland, Converge and Sarah McLusky, working in partnership with Ross Tuffee and the Connect-Ed Network.

[00:29:53] Sarah McLusky: The podcast team includes Orla Kelly, Adam Kosterka, Jen Black, and me, Sarah McLusky. This season of the Academic Adventures Podcast is supported by the Scottish Funding Council.